Are fireworks worth dieing for?

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propyro2

Registered User
I never really considered the question but the more informed I become I do worry.

It is amazing what risks pyro's take just to ensure a good show.

The really addicted ones dont let a major injury to a spectator at one of their shows, or a major injury or death to one of their employees stop them from continuing in pyro.

Static electricity and friction ignition of e matches continues to kill people but we all ematch 8 inch shells in our lap without bothering about the type of clothing we are wearing or the type of chair we are sitting on or the conductivity of the floor. When will static strike.

Right now pyros are removing the plastic shroud on ematches and inserting into quick match.

Right now pyros are not thinking twice about switching e match brands.

Right now we are sliding fused boxes of pyro along the floor of magazines and truck floors when this has been the the cause of fatal accidents.

Right now pyros are cutting q match with metal scissors.

Right now metal mortars are being used when a shell detonation will cause shrapnel that has killed and maimed countless people.

Right now pyros are using pyro clock and delay chain fusing shells without having considered a rack failure and if the next shell will fire at them or thier family or the public in the audience.

Relatively speaking the risks are quite low but it took me many years and wide reading and information mining, to learn about accidents that have occured. I dont know about half of them and there does not seem to be much published info or a database of them for obviuos reasons.

If the risk of static in ematches could be eliminated the safety to shooters would be vastly improved.

There is no way in hell I would manufacture when so many experts have had accidents.

I am putting this out there to learn about what others think of these risks.
 
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xavier

Registered User
Fireworks are not worth dieng for. Avery job has his risks. You need always to increase the risks. If you are dealing with fireworks, you know (have to know) you are manipulating explosives. It is very important you keep the safty distance from the public en buildings. We refused several displays for that reason and we still do. But other compagnies are taking the risk and have the contract. This is very pitty.

I never shoot a display by hand. I always shoot with ingitors. I stay on asafety distance from the fireworks.
 
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propyro2

Registered User
Electrical firing does appear to increase shooter safety as a shell detonation i.e explosion in the tube does not happen right in your face but I have heard some pyros make an arguement that they feel electrical can actually increase risk of a serious accident. They say they have heard of more of their friends falling victim to accidents where the cause was suspected to be the ignition by ematch. The activities include the process of attaching the ematch, the handling of cases of ematched product during loading/unloading(multiple accidents in one July 4th season few years back Florida,Texas etc well reported), the removal of ematched shells from mortars when shows have been cancelled.
Then there are the reports of ematches firing due to static when people have been sitting on plastic chairs during fusing and even when unrolling plastic film inorder to weather proof product. These are activities pyro's do routinely without a thought that danger exists.
Electrical firing is obviously the ignition method therefore somebody needs to develop an ignition technique that addresses the STATIC risk as a matter of priority.
I would like to see sometype of estimation of the number of accidental ignition of E matches.
Sorry about making people nervous when ematching.
 
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xavier

Registered User
Here In Europe I never heard about any problems with ingnitors. We never sit on plastic chairs. With ingnitors from Davey bickford (davey fire), we never had any problems. I don(t trust Asian ignitors.
 
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appiehappie

Registered User
But even in some European shows, pyrotechnicians increasingly make use of metal tubes for launching their shells. An argument in favour of using this type of tubes is that they (i.e. the pyrotechnicians) can use the tube multiple times without cleaning and polishing the inner core of a tube. It saves valuable time and money, but I think is poses a great risk of deadly schrapnel (not only for the professionals who use them, but also members of the public who will gather to watch a fenomenous fireworks display and are not aware of debree flying around when things go wrong).

I reckon that if pyrotechnicians will take a great deal of precautions before loading and ematching tubes, accidents are likely to deminish but they will never dissappear (it still remain irreversible chemical reactions once they started). If you look at fuel lorries who refill gas stations, drivers always attach a special wire to avoid any static electricity which might be present in the vehicle and which poses a risk for static sparks.
This might be a promising solution (although I'm not an expert in handling electrical matches) or worth considering (and adjusting for firework display purposes).

Maybe people become more ignorant about safety precautions when handling shells and ematches (and fireworks in general) if over a considerable amount of time no fatal accidents have occured. It's sad but true, even with consumer fireworks people are neglective and underestimate the risks they can (and sometimes) will encounter.
You cannot emphasise enough on safety regulations (especially with large shells).
 
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Sparkey

Registered User
Fireworks are not worth dieing for, but the chance of a deadly accident is the same for somebody who is working in the construction business. The risks are known to those who choose to fullfill their profession, right?

You sum up a list of handlings that are potentially deadly for the pyrotechnicians or can result in serious injury's, but it's a sum of things that were allready known but neglected because pyrotechnicians do tend to get "sloppy on the job (not a blow-job)" especially when disastrous events doesn't occur for some time. That "sloppyness" is found in all professions that bring slight hazard with them I quess.

Unawareness is an other thing. When sliding e-matched articles through the loading area of a truck, without knowing that e-matches are friction sensitive, can ofcourse result in disaster. If that is the cause of the accident it seems obvious that the remaining pyrotechnic companies learn their lesson and treat the e-matches with precaution and awareness. It becomes slightly different when the e-match problems (for example) ARE know and the display operator neglects them, the question "are fireworks worth dieing for" can be asked again.

I am in the lucky position that I'm working with someone who is a pyrotechnic veteran, and (despite of all the years of the same fireworks and same safety standards) never seems to have lost the "eye" for safety-violations. He even tends to get upset when someone leaves a piece of fuse on the ground, which ofcourse is very good.

We also atach e-match on to the shells when they are loaded and placed in position. We never shoot from steel mortars. We only use anti-static tools to cut the qiuckmatch. We do all kind of things to prevent accidents, but even then a accident hides in a small corner (if you know what I mean haha).

Despite all the preparations we still have to deal with unpredictable fireworks. We all do.

Getting back on topic I would like to qoute a saying of my pyrotechnic friend
"Do not fear the fireworks, but treat it with respect"
 
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Vavoom

Registered User
Just to add my 2 cents:

for some types of shell (e.g. the (large) italian cilinder shells) steel mortars are preferred above other types of mortars. The main reason for that is, that steel mortars are supposed to be stronger than e.g. HDPE. Although, if you increase the wall diameter, HDPE just might work fine.

Besides, not every steel mortar will give shrapnel, if a shell explodes inside the tube. This is due to the availability of "non-fragmentary" steel.

Steel mortars and salutes are not supposed to be combined together, though.
But this doesn't seem to be a problem in Italy.
 
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poziloc

Guest
steel mortar after a mortar burst

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opbouw_avondshow_3_.JPG
 
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meggsy

Registered User
No of course they're not worth dying for....

I have seen two incidents this year where firers have come close to death, but they were following safe proceedures and this saved their lives. As the old saying goes 'if you play with fire you will get burned,' so If you are not prepared to take any chances why would anyone would be involved in this industry. Do you work in the industry Propyro 2? If so maybe you should reconsider your involvement (smile) . If you treat what your handling with respect, and follow good practice, you will minimise the risk, but with explosives you can never remove all risk, it is the nature of the beast.

I have just finished firing a number of shows both electrical and hand fired and see merit with both methods. We use a lot of Fibreglass Tubes and Cardboard tubes, HDPE is coming through. I very rarely use Metal tubes when they have been used (for some Italian MB's) they have been buried in sand.

I have actually seen a e-match/lighter ignite from plastic sheeting when working on the Fireworks Championships at Plymouth earlier this year, that sort of thing does worry you. It is another lesson learnt, but if you dwell too much on these things you would never get a show rigged.
 
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propyro2

Registered User
I am in the industry although a small player. Like I have mentioned before the more time you spend in the game the more you hear of shit happening. What makes it different to many other industries is many of the accidents never have their exact cause determinded because the witness(es) are usually dead and it is hard to pinpoint the exact cause of ignition. Also static discharge is an illusive risk.

Also accidents happen to people vastly more experienced to yourself working in facilities with more safeguards in place e.g. conductive floors in fusing rooms etc. From what I know now, I cannot beleive the buildings in which some big time companies are doing their fusing. I know of a guy innocently fusing only 3" shells by himself in a dedicated out building, not many shells in the room, less than carton, something ignites, gets stuck in room and dies from smoke inhalation. Company gets massively fined because not enough exits, exit plan etc etc etc. What type of area do you fuse in, how much product around, how many other people also working in that room etc, does it have special outward opening doors, conductive floor and benchtop, do you wear approved clothing and shoes? 90% of pyros do not understand the requirement for such measures and would never get to the scale to be able to afford such facilities. In the meantime we work in unsafe environments or very uncomfortable environments like some cold barn with crap lighting way out in the countryside.
I am starting to worry about the risks. Some people kind of boast that you know when you are really dedicated to fireworks when somebody close to you dies from fireworks and you keep keeping on. This is more so with those that do some manufacturering.

The static thing really shits me. I have some money, some loved ones, some sports I really love doing and to get hurt by a shell as I am putting some plastic over a rack or cake, would suck big time. You cannot do pyro and keep your body from getting over the top of mortars or cakes.

Maybe I have got my buzz from pyro. Three days work to plan, pick, and rig a show - all over in 10 minutes - sneak a peak at the action durng the show - maybe check out some video in the viewfinder of a mates camera after the show - then start packing up. You get the idea.

Anyway enough of the happy talk, got some compliance paperwork to do, fireworks business is so much about mind numbing paperwork now. May consider only shooting for someone let them do all the bullshit and take the risk of getting arse sued by govt or anybody else these days.

PS I am not alone, I saw an interview with the boss of Pyro Spectaculars(worlds biggets pyro company) of California recently and he said the fun has gone out of the business, he was really down beat.
 
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propyro2

Registered User
What's the alternative? Plastic scissors I suppose, but where can I find one?[/QUOTE]
In everywhere hardware store. Called blade and anvil cutters. Used for garden pruning. In most countries you get caught with metal tools for the cutting of fuse and you are breaking the law. You have an accident and they find metal tools that can spark present in a fusing room or on a site, you will be taken to court and fined out of existence. They find any metal accessories on a fusing table that could have somehow caused a spark by the accidental knocking against another metal object and an expert will testify that this was a potential source of ignition and if as the employer you were aware of this your arse is grass. This is no fiction it has happened. Exactly this logic was used by the govt's attorneys.

Fiskars brand are the best fuse cutters I have ever used.
 
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propyro2

Registered User
http://www.stop-fireworks.org/

These anti firework freaks think they have the answer. Sorry describing them as freaks is an insult to Tony and crew.

Quote
"Worldwide more and more people run health risks through fireworks: people with respiratory diseases, metal allergies and chemical incompatibility.

A whole industry branch lives on fireworks production and a large amount of money is involved. Appeals to individuals to be concerned for the health of others are usually not successful"

These people must be so happy and funloving?
 
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fishnride63

Registered User
Pyro 2 do you really believe that anything is worth dieing for, not including family? I have been shooting for over 25 years and have never been hurt. I have seen people around me get hurt and everytime it is because of poor situational awareness, or the urge to rush and not go forward with intelligence and safety in mind. When I first started shooting there was no such thing as plastic pipes, all you had was metal. Either steel or aluminum.

I still to this day shoot out of steel pipes, not for the cost effectiveness of not having to buy more pipes but due to the size and power of the shells and their lift charge. If the site is properly prepared and the people have been trained the correct way you can avoid serious injury not only to the public but to the technicains shooting the display. I personally do not care for electrical shows not due to the problems associated with the ematch but the exorbatant amount of extra work that is involved in setting up the show.

Granted there are some effects that are just not possible with out the use of ematch but for my purposes I have a hard time justifying it. If you were to refer to the NFPA guidlines for the use of steel pipes and HDPE you will see that there has been quite a bit of thought put into the process. Not to mention that you can buy quite a few HDPE pipes as opposed to the cost of a properly constructed steel mortar I assure you. I have seen the attached picture of the failed mortar and agree that it is not very pretty.

I would be very interested in knowing the specs on the pipe that was used, Ie: wall thickness, height, tensile strength, extruded or welded. Personally the 6" pipes that I have that are within the guidlines appear to have a larger wall thickness than that in the picture. If that is the same picture that I have seen before I believe that was a 12" pipe that was loaded with a custom made shell, another part of the equation that lends to several other questions. You must also realize that the guidelines are minimums, with that in mind if you are going to shoot shells that are typically above the normal power for an average shell that size you should make the proper adjustments in your equipment. Just my 2 cents. Like others have said if you are that nervous about the dangers you may be better off out of the industry because it could eventually create more problems.
 
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WILLIE

Registered User
Re: Are fireworks worth dieing for? to true i was standing right there

meggsy zei:
No of course they're not worth dying for....

I have seen two incidents this year where firers have come close to death, but they were following safe proceedures and this saved their lives. As the old saying goes 'if you play with fire you will get burned,' so If you are not prepared to take any chances why would anyone would be involved in this industry. Do you work in the industry Propyro 2? If so maybe you should reconsider your involvement (smile) . If you treat what your handling with respect, and follow good practice, you will minimise the risk, but with explosives you can never remove all risk, it is the nature of the beast.

I have just finished firing a number of shows both electrical and hand fired and see merit with both methods. We use a lot of Fibreglass Tubes and Cardboard tubes, HDPE is coming through. I very rarely use Metal tubes when they have been used (for some Italian MB's) they have been buried in sand.

I have actually seen a e-match/lighter ignite from plastic sheeting when working on the Fireworks Championships at Plymouth earlier this year, that sort of thing does worry you. It is another lesson learnt, but if you dwell too much on these things you would never get a show rigged.[/QUOTE
Klik om te vergroten...
 
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propyro2

Registered User
ATF agents investigate fatal fireworks explosion in New Orleans
January 1, 1999
Web posted at: 9:52 p.m. EST (0252 GMT)
NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- Investigators were trying to determine Friday what caused a truck loaded with fireworks to explode during preparations for a New Year's Eve show, killing two technicians and critically injuring an off-duty deputy.
Authorities say a decision had been made to scale back the show, so workers were taking some of the fireworks off the barge and putting them back on the truck.
One man was in the truck and another was just outside it when the explosion took place, said Austin Banks, a spokesman for the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

August 19, 2005 – For Immediate Release
KSFMO AND ATF JOINTLY ANNOUNCE PRELIMINARY
INVESTIGATIVE FINDINGS IN FATAL EXPLOSION
CRESTLINE, Kansas

Preliminary results into the ongoing investigation of the fatal explosion and fire at the Fireworks Spectacular storage facility in Crestline.
The investigation indicates that six employees were in the process of loading aerial display fireworks from a storage magazine into a portable trailer for transportation to St. Louis, Mo. for several planned fireworks displays. The shells were“pre-squibed” and loaded into boxes. “Pre-squibed” means that the initiator (electric match) is attached to the fuse of the shell. This is a common practice in the fireworks industry so that the process can be done in a controlled and safer environment instead of at the scene of the display.
According to witness accounts, during the process of loading the boxes, one of the boxes made a sound and then exploded. The explosion of that box caused the other fireworks to ignite, causing the detonation of most of the remaining shells and the subsequent fire in both of the trailers. The exact cause of detonation of the first box is the focus of the ongoing investigation.
Autopsies were scheduled in Topeka, Kan., for the victims, Faron Trey Robinson, 29, and Daniel Lee Groves, 29 both of Scammon, Kan. Both Cody Soper, 21, and Craig Banke, 32, still remain at St. John’s Hospital in Springfield, Mo.
 
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